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They are Homeopathic Dilutions

Posted by Ian2015 on 31 Mar 2015 at 20:11 GMT

This is just a response to Dr. Bayer's comment. The article clearly states "only 30 C and 200 C were prescribed" which are homeopathic dilutions. I believe that's an oversight onl your part in not completing reading the article.

No competing interests declared.

RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

JWoodgett replied to Ian2015 on 17 Apr 2015 at 13:47 GMT

Yes, these are homeopathic dilutions and the experimental design appears at first glance valid. However, it is remarkable that PLOS One would choose to vet and publish this study based on the fact that the remedies for each participant were selected and changed over time:

"All patients no matter the group assigned, had a full homeopathic case-taking including the collection of all the facts pertaining to the patient which may help in reaching the totality of the symptoms: past and present physical and emotional symptoms, family environment since childhood, stressful life events, marital satisfaction. The symptoms were organized by hierarchy: mental, general and physical. In first place, the strategy to choose the individualized remedy was based on the most characteristic and clear mental symptoms. Secondly, general symptoms were taken into account. Computerized version of Synthesis Homeopathic Repertory 9.1 (Radar version 10) was used to facilitate the prescription. Only one remedy was prescribed at a time but it could be changed at every follow-up according to patient's symptoms."

The most appropriate study design would be a control with randomized selection of the "individualized homeopathic treatment".

Competing interests declared: I don't believe in magic.

RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

tcreamer1 replied to JWoodgett on 17 Apr 2015 at 15:02 GMT

They may be "homeopathic dilutions", but there are no descriptions of the initial concentrations being diluted.

"C-potencies are prepared by diluting a drop of a parent substance in 99 drops of ethanol followed by agitation of the solution (1 C). Then one drop of this solution is diluted in 99 drops of ethanol followed by agitation of the solution (2 C). This procedure is repeated in consecutive agitated dilutions (3 C, 4 C, and so on)."

A drop of parent solution? What does that mean? This is science?

Couple that with Dr. Woodgett's comment above - a more serious issue - and it's clear that this study cannot be replicated. Surely this is a violation of PLOS ONE's own publication criteria (http://www.plosone.org/st...). Item 3 clearly states:

"Methods and reagents must be described in sufficient detail for another researcher to reproduce the experiments described."

Good luck with that.

Competing interests declared: I also don't believe in magic.

RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

ecmc2008 replied to tcreamer1 on 19 Apr 2015 at 04:23 GMT

The study can be reproduced without problem. The knowledge of classical homeopathy, will help to deeply understand many aspects of the article and give an objective and unbiased opinion.

The homeopathic medicines were provided by Laboratorio Similia in Mexico City. It is a prestigious laboratory that produces homeopathic medicines according to a standardized method in compliance with COFEPRIS regulation. COFEPRIS is the institution in charge of the regulation of the production of medicines in Mexico (like FDA in USA). In the Methods section, there is a description of how C-potencies are prepared, so it could be clear, but nowadays the homeopathic medicines are not handmade. They are not magic or witchcraft. All the homeopathic medicines used in the study were provided by the laboratory mentioned above according to standardized and well established guidelines. Moreover, the homeopathic medicines used in the study are available for everybody.

The study aimed to evaluate the efficacy of the individualized homeopathic treatment as a whole, an individualized prescription means selecting an individualized remedy according to the patient's symptoms in the appropriate potency needed to heal. That is classical homeopathy. In general terms, homeopathy studies the patient as a whole, taking into account that is a human being that might be physically and mentally ill. This is not magic, is a comprehensive medical approach or holistic care. The study did not aim to evaluate the same medicine for all patients. As the selection and prescription in homeopathy is individualized, the same prescription for all patients will surely fail in improving depressive symptoms. Again, this is not magic, it is the methodology of the classical homeopathic prescription.

Furthermore, there is also a description of how the homeopathic medicines were chosen for each individual prescription according to the classical homeopathy. The way the homeopathic doctor prescribes the medicine includes the same routine clinical examination plus many other facts. The paper describes it as follows: "a full homeopathic case-taking including the collection of all the facts pertaining to the patient which may help in reaching the totality of the symptoms: past and present physical and emotional symptoms, family environment since childhood, stressful life events, marital satisfaction. The symptoms were organized by hierarchy: mental, general and physical. In first place, the strategy to choose the individualized remedy was based on the most characteristic and clear mental symptoms. Secondly, general symptoms were taken into account. Computerized version of Synthesis Homeopathic Repertory 9.1 (Radar version 10) was used to facilitate the prescription. Only one remedy was prescribed at a time but it could be changed at every follow-up according to patient's symptoms".

Competing interests declared: I am the author of the article

RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

JWoodgett replied to ecmc2008 on 20 Apr 2015 at 15:14 GMT

Thank you for your reply. A fundamental flaw (aside from lack of scientific basic, ahem), is not addressed. Each patient was given a customized/personalized homeopathic treatment (which was adapted over time according to classic homeopathic texts). The appropriate control would be to randomize that treatment (i.e. the "provings"). Only the "proper" selection of remedies should be effective. Given that homeopathic remedies have no side-effects (how could they), it would be entirely ethical to conduct such randomization. I would also think it scientifically more objective to have this study conducted in a setting that does not have a business in delivery of homeopathic treatments - although, to be fair, I am not suggesting clinical trials of conventional drugs be performed in homeopathic centres.

Without an understanding of the basic principles of homeopathy, the practice cannot be described as science and is, in my opinion, therefore unsuited to a "Public Library of Science" journal, given there are specialized journals dedicated to describing homeopathic practices.

Competing interests declared: I am skeptical of any procedures that rely on breaking fundamental rules of chemistry and physics without any evidence as to how they are broken.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

ecmc2008 replied to JWoodgett on 21 Apr 2015 at 17:36 GMT

This study is not a homeopathic proving trial, which has a different objective. Our study was randomized and patients were allocated in one of the three groups. Regarding the study setting, I agree with you. It would be more objective to conduct the study in a setting that does not have a business in delivery of homeopathic treatments, but the same thing occurs with many other studies which are conducted in their own settings. Most of the time, medical doctors conduct studies in settings where they work on their own area of expertise, precisely because they are trained in that. Moreover, other medical doctors are employed by the pharmaceutical industry which is frequently involved with funds in many studies.

Competing interests declared: I am the author of the article

RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

sylagy replied to ecmc2008 on 25 Apr 2015 at 11:24 GMT

The article says "In the HOMDEP-MENOP study, a single dose of the individualized homeopathic remedy selected was dissolved in a 60 ml bottle of 30% alcohol-distilled water." But what "a single dose" was is nowhere defined. What was it? A drop, or possibly a lactose globule impregnated with the homeopathic solution?

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

ecmc2008 replied to sylagy on 27 Apr 2015 at 01:21 GMT

The single dose was provided by Laboratorio Similia, and it is a standardized dose in microglobules which was dissolved in the 60 ml bottle.

Competing interests declared: I am the author of the article

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

sylagy replied to ecmc2008 on 27 Apr 2015 at 10:17 GMT

Thank you for the reply. But that means that there was lactose in the homeopathic preparation for the verum group, but there was no lactose in the placebo homeopathic preparation. Now I don't think that lactose affects depression, but given the fact that lactose has a sweet taste, is it possible that patients in the verum group could have found out that they are in the verum group based on the sweet taste? If so, that weakens the blinding.

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They are Homeopathic Dilutions

ecmc2008 replied to sylagy on 30 Apr 2015 at 01:20 GMT

No, nobody reported this and both, the homeopathic medicine and placebo, look the same.

Competing interests declared: I am the author of the article