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Only sense trial evidence

Posted by JonD on 15 Jan 2014 at 12:07 GMT

You state that the existence of 'only-sense' trials would be evidence for the ability to detect unidentified changes. How do you show this, could it not be due to guessing? You do not have equal numbers of catch trials and trials, this has been shown to introduce a response bias in certain conditions, and has previously been used to discredit papers in the field of parapsychology.

Also, the participants had a fairly long time to identify one of nine changes in each photo, each of which they had been shown previously. Even if they could only rule out 'hat','glasses' and 'earings' in this time, and you would suspect they should rule out more, would this not alter your assumed 'probability of incorrectly guessing which option had changed': Q=8/9 would be better estimated as Q=5/9 or lower. Is it possible for this to account for your results? You state that the observer may have some subconscious information about what has changed, they are very likely to have some very conscious information.

Would signal detection theory not have been great for this? Miss, hit, correct rejection, false alarm. I could not see that your equation covered these 4 possibilities, but I may be wrong on that.

Whilst your hypothetical observer could not press the wrong button whilst knowing the correct answer on several trials, is it likely that your real observers were also this perfect?




No competing interests declared.

RE: Only sense trial evidence

PiersHowe replied to JonD on 15 Jan 2014 at 21:44 GMT

I agree that it very important to account for the possibility of observers guessing. Of course, our paper contains an extended mathematical analysis to do just that. This analysis would seem to address most of your concerns or are you suggesting that there is a flaw in our analysis?

One further point I would make is that Experiment 4 acts a control. It was analysed in the same way as Experiment 3 yet the results were not significant. This shows that the significant results of Experiment 3 cannot be due solely to the analysis.

I think that your suggestion that we could perform a signal detection theory analysis of our data is very interesting and I would like to hear more as to how you believe this could be done. It is not immediately obviously to me how you apply a signal detection theory to our data, given our paradigm. If you can see how this could be done, please email me at pdhowe@unimelb.edu.au. Thanks.

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: Only sense trial evidence

JonD replied to PiersHowe on 17 Jan 2014 at 11:38 GMT

Firstly, I mentioned signal detection theory because on a brief read through, this paper seems to want to be a signal detection theory paper - hits, misses, correct rejection, and a number of graphs that look very like they should have a ROC curve on them. I should have guessed that you did look into it, I have only read such papers and can offer less insight than you doubtless have.

I would like to explain why I became concerned about the paper. I was never going to read it without the largely peripheral claim that it debunks ESP. This comment is somewhat disingenuous to parapsychology and several good, but heavily criticised, studies. As all good sceptics should agree, it is reasonable to class the claim of 'ESP debunked' as an extraordinary claim, one that requires extraordinary evidence.

Does this paper provide extraordinary evidence of anything? Would it pass in the scientific world inhabited by parapsychologists that is so easily dismissed by knowledgeable sceptics. (I should state here I have no formal interest in parapsychology, but I do find it fascinating).

I mentioned that I was initially concerned about Q (derivation point 5). The derivation seems sound enough reading through it (without actually checking, I trust you!), but Q is ultra-conservative. It would be much more reasonable at Q=3/9 or 4/9. After 3 seconds of inspecting a stimuli, a presumption of no knowledge is not reasonable, e.g. I imagine I could always spot a hat. I understand why your novel analysis technique does not allow this though. On the positive side, it leaves you reporting only around 4 trials out of 100 in Exp 1, a small number on which to base your interpretation of a significant result. Some would question this in a task where participants had to reliably click a 9 choice response and not make a 4% 'mechanical' response error (on the balance of probability, whilst knowing the answer), or confuse the change occasionally for a previous trial response (or the next one if demonstrating precognition?). Given the other thread, this is backed up by a control experiment tending towards significance.

Now, I understand that control experiments are good so long as they remain not significant. It would also be my understanding that in some cases requiring extraordinary evidence, the control would be very easy to debunk if it was not a very close approximation to the experiments it claimed to support. I think there are too few similarities between Exp 1 and 4 to draw any firm conclusion. Making large changes to an experiment, and then nearly getting the same result, is not a strong control and is simple to dismiss.

The problem with the control is compounded when we know that Q is ultra-conservative. Anything less conservative for Q in experiment 4, and your control becomes significant (I'm pretty sure the direction of change in significance levels on that is correct). How do we then reasonably suggest that it can rule out the other possibilities?

I am interested in what your Q was for experiment 3 though, I could probably work it out quite quickly, but it is not immediately obvious (it would be if I were a better statistician!). Experiment 3 does not seem too surprising on the face of it, it is interesting to note there was very little guessing. So when you change a large proportion of the colour of something from red to green or vice versa, people can tell. I am unsure that this relates to a subtle change in eye liner on someone’s face, and completely mystified as to how it relates to ESP.

I don't want to labour over small points, and I am happy for you to show me I am wrong on anything above (mainly the control and the conservative Q). After all, you have worked on it for months, where as I can only claim to have read it a couple of times. Following the claims for ESP debunking, I wanted to demonstrate that scepticism is easy to do, but perhaps muddies the water and is not very healthy for science. Maybe I succeeded at that, in some small way, although I doubt it!

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: RE: Only sense trial evidence

PiersHowe replied to JonD on 17 Jan 2014 at 21:22 GMT

The term ESP has been used by different people to mean different things, anything from telepathy to precognition. Our study speaks to just one aspect of ESP, the aspect that the general public might describe as a sixth sense ( "A power of perception seemingly independent of the five sense" (American Heritage Dictionary) or "a power of perception beyond the five sense" (Webster's College Dictionary)).

The motivation for the study was a student who approached me claiming to have an ability that she described as a sixth sense. She claimed to be able to sense things about people that she could not see. She gave an example of meeting an acquaintance and sensing that he had recently been in a car accident even though she could see no visible signs of this accident.

Our experiment 1 showed that people can indeed sometimes sense changes that they cannot identify. So, we managed to replicate in the laboratory something similar to what the student had experienced. In particular, we showed that people were able to sense changes that they felt they had not seen. As you know, we then investigated how this processes occurred and concluded that people were relying on visual statistics. As such, while we verified that people do have a sensing ability (i.e. they are able to sense changes that they cannot then identify), there is no reason to suppose that this is due a sixth sense and this ability can be readily explained in terms of the monitoring of visual statistics. As such, accounts of situations where observers sensed things that they claim they cannot see, do not necessarily provide evidence for the existence of a sixth sense.

As for your discussion of the statistical analysis, I think that I may see your difficulty. In our analysis we constructed a model based on the assumption that humans had no sensing ability (i.e. no ability to sense changes that they could not identify). The Q values were chosen based on this assumption. In fact, they are completely determined by this assumption. Because we were able to disprove this model we were then justified in concluding that humans have a sensing ability.

Our paper therefore does provide rigorous evidence that observers can sense changes that they cannot identify, something that had been much debated in the literature.

I don't understand why you would compare Experiment 4 to Experiment 1. Experiment 4 was designed to be compared to Experiment 3 and indeed that was the only experiment to which it was compared. Sorry, but I don't understand your concerns here.

Finally, I just wanted to address your point on healthy scepticism. If a sixth sense were real then this would be truly extraordinary. Consequently, before we can accept evidence that the sixth sense exists we need to rule out other more conventional explanations. Our article shows that evidence that is often taken as supporting a sixth sense can readily be explained in terms of known visual processes. Thus, our article argues against a sixth sense.

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Only sense trial evidence

JonD replied to PiersHowe on 18 Jan 2014 at 11:23 GMT

To clarify:

You constructed a model based on the assumption that humans had no sensing ability, and disproved it.

You did not apply this 'non-sense' model for the control experiment, as it would be wholly responsible for the null result in your control.

I may have misunderstood, the format of the results sections looked very similar throughout the 4 experiments.

No competing interests declared.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Only sense trial evidence

PiersHowe replied to JonD on 18 Jan 2014 at 20:29 GMT

"You constructed a model based on the assumption that humans had no sensing ability, and disproved it"

Yes, under some circumstances.

"You did not apply this 'non-sense' model for the control experiment, as it would be wholly responsible for the null result in your control."

No. It was applied applied to Experiment 4. In this case there was a null result so I was not justified in rejecting the model. Thus, I could not conclude in Experiment 4 that humans did have a sensing ability under those circumstances. By comparing Experiment 3 and Experiment 4 I was able to conclude that humans only display a sensing ability when the change to the image also changes the visual statistics of the image.

No competing interests declared.